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Messages from 23275

Article: 23275
Subject: PWM
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C1ngel=20Guti=E9rrez?= <agutierrez@matrix.es>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:59:21 +0200
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
I need make a PWM in a cpld (abel code)
TKS in advanced

Article: 23276
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: "Andy Peters" <apeters.Nospam@nospam.noao.edu.nospam>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:16:03 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Rickman wrote in message <394ED629.7FE21705@yahoo.com>...
>I guess I was thinking that using the CE vs. might save power rather
>than asking if it used more power. But it sounds like the two methods
>are equivalent.
>
>From my past experiences, if you are doing HDL design, it can be hard to
>control whether the CE is used or not. Or in some cases like with FPGA
>Express which is the packaged VHDL compiler in the Foundation package,
>the CE can be overused. I found that if you put any type of conditional
>logic (if statements) inside the "if (risingedge(xxx))...endif"
>statement it would turn those other if statements in logic feeding the
>CE input. So it was not always easy to control when the CE got used or
>not.
>
>So if there is little difference in power consumption, I will structure
>all of my code to not use the CE unless I see a clear advantage in speed
>or LUT usage.

Rick,

What don't you like about the clock enable?

Given code like:

    flop : process (clk, reset) is
    begin
        if reset = '1' then
            q <= '0';
        elsif rising_edge(clk) then
            if enable = '1' then
                q <= d;
            end if;
        end if;
    end process flop;

the recirculating mux controlled by enable (CE) is what retains the value of
q when enable is not asserted.  Don't forget that ALL of the Xilinx flops
have this mux -- not explicitly designating a clock enable signal implies
that the clock enable is always tied active.

The timing analyzer takes the mux delay into account.

-- andy
-----------------------------------------
Andy Peters
Sr Electrical Engineer
National Optical Astronomy Observatories
950 N Cherry Ave
Tucson, AZ 85719
apeters (at) noao \dot\ edu

"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
     --Arthur C. Clarke



Article: 23277
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: iglasner@my-deja.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:03:50 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hi,

  A FF even if it "see" the same input level does consume power as long
as there is a clock.

The only way to reduce the power of a group of FF's is by shuting down
their clock meaning using clock enable.

One example for using clock enable is for stand by purpose in cellualr
phone, where the power source (battery) is limited.

have a nice day

   Illan

In article <394ED629.7FE21705@yahoo.com>,
  Rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I guess I was thinking that using the CE vs. might save power rather
> than asking if it used more power. But it sounds like the two methods
> are equivalent.
>
> From my past experiences, if you are doing HDL design, it can be hard
to
> control whether the CE is used or not. Or in some cases like with FPGA
> Express which is the packaged VHDL compiler in the Foundation package,
> the CE can be overused. I found that if you put any type of
conditional
> logic (if statements) inside the "if (risingedge(xxx))...endif"
> statement it would turn those other if statements in logic feeding the
> CE input. So it was not always easy to control when the CE got used or
> not.
>
> So if there is little difference in power consumption, I will
structure
> all of my code to not use the CE unless I see a clear advantage in
speed
> or LUT usage.
>
> Peter Alfke said in an email...
> > CE-inputs in Xilinx FPGAs really do nothing to the clock. They
control
> > a multiplexer in front of the D input, so that the flip-flop loads
its
> > existing value. Thus there is no advantage in implementing CE in a
LUT
> > (and CE saves you either one or two LUT inputs ).
> >
> > XC4000, Spartan, and Virtex global clocks ar distributed along a
> > horizontal "spine" with "ribs" going up and down in each column. The
> > software is smart enough to drive a rib only if there is a clock
> > destination in this column.  Vertically aligning register etc banks
can
> > thus save power, and the carry structure automatically enforces
that
> > kind of alignment for counters and accumulators.
> >
> > Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applications
> > ================================================
> > Rickman wrote:
> >
> > > On this issue, I have never figured out about using the CE vs.
gating
> > > the input with the LUT. Is there a difference in power
consumption in
> > > the two cases? That is does a FF use any more power if it is
enabled,
> > > but the input is the same as the current output so that it does
not
> > > change state?
>
> --
>
> Rick Collins
>
> rick.collins@XYarius.com
>
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the
XY
> removed.
>
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design
>
> Arius
> 4 King Ave
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110
> 301-682-7772 Voice
> 301-682-7666 FAX
>
> Internet URL http://www.arius.com
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Article: 23278
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:04:00 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

--------------D4C4C136FDE5FA98D1F6D257
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is what I just received from our databook-CD master.
Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applications


Xilinx Databook CD ROM Solutions.

We are presently working on a new method of creating a CD ROM
and will not be using the current/old "browser" mapping on future CDs.

An easy and quick fix. Post this somewhere for everyone to use:

When the CD ROM starts up, hit the 'ESC' key.
             this stops the CD ROM from loading anything.
Then open the CD using Windows explorer.
Double-click on the databook.htm file and open with your browser
or double-click on the databook.pdf file and open in Adobe Reader.

 Please post this infomation.


--------------D4C4C136FDE5FA98D1F6D257
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
This is what I just received from our databook-CD master.
<br>Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applications
<br>&nbsp;
<h2>
Xilinx Databook CD ROM Solutions.</h2>

<p><br>We are presently working on a new method of creating a CD ROM
<br>and will not be using the current/old "browser" mapping on future CDs.<b></b>
<p><b>An easy and quick fix. Post this somewhere for everyone to use:</b>
<p>When the CD ROM starts up, hit the 'ESC' key.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
this stops the CD ROM from loading anything.
<br>Then open the CD using Windows explorer.
<br>Double-click on the databook.htm file and open with your browser
<br>or double-click on the databook.pdf file and open in Adobe Reader.
<p>&nbsp;Please post this infomation.
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------D4C4C136FDE5FA98D1F6D257--

Article: 23279
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Robert Binkley <robert.binkley@xilinx.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:15:23 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

One of the reasons the Spartan-II datasheet is protected (a feature of the
datasheet) is to prevent anyone from making changes and mis-representing the
specs.  The hotline can send you an un-protected datasheet upon request or,
if you would like the security password send me an email.  Please include
the reason that you would like to be able to do the copying.  My email is
robert.binkley@xilinx.com.

Is there a better way or format that you would prefer to have the data?
A new rev of the Datasheet is due out soon, so keep your eyes open.

Robert

Rick Collins wrote:

> I noticed something about the Spartan II data sheet that I have only
> seen in a few other PDF files before. I can not use the text cursor to
> select and copy text from this document. Is something unique to my
> computer and this data sheet, or does everyone have this problem? I have
> done a quick check and found that I also have this problem with the
> Spartan XL data sheet but not most of the other Xilinx data sheets.
>
> If this is a feature of the data sheet and not of my computer, does
> anyone know if this is an accidental glitch or if Xilinx intended it? I
> can't imagine why anyone would want to disable a text copy feature when
> the data is available in the data sheet. Is there some feature that I am
> missing in Acrobat?
>
> If anyone from Xilinx who could do something about this is reading, the
> text copy feature is very useful in data sheets. If this is not my
> machine, but rather a data sheet related issue, can you please turn it
> back on in the next issue?
>
> --
>
> Rick Collins
>
> rick.collins@XYarius.com
>
> remove the XY to email me.
>
> Arius, Inc. - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design
>
> Arius
> 4 King Ave
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110
> 301-682-7772 Voice
> 301-682-7666 FAX
>
> Internet URL http://www.arius.com

Article: 23280
Subject: Re: Battery backup for 5V Xilinx Spartan devices
From: richm <richm@xilinx.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:30:53 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Eric,

The 5 V Spartan devices may not be reliable at 2.5V, the power on reset trip
voltage is set in the area of 2 V however it varies quite a bit from production
lot to production lot.  The 3 mA quiescent current spec for the Spartan devices
is padded a little however it is very close.

We would recommend that you look at the Spartan-XL for this type of application
as it will work correctly (however slower) at 2.7V and probably down to your
desired 2.5V. The current spec on the Spartan-XL device does not reflect where
the device actually performs but reflects where the production test limits had been
set. We have done a lot of testing and characterization here and have found the
devices run more like 100-500 uA.

If you need more info, send me an e-mail and I can get you some curves showing
the Spartan-XL characteristics over temp and voltage.

Rick Mitchell
Spartan Apps



Eric wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I could not find any information about the behaviour of 5 V Spartan devices
> regarding operation with battery backup.
>
> Namely, here's what I'm looking for :
>
> - does a 5V Spartan device reliably retain data at 2.5V (lithium cell / 2x AAA alkaline
>   battery at end of life voltage) ?
>
> - retention current specs (using the latest V1.5 data sheet) is somewhat unclear:
>    on page 36, it says max quiescent current (commercial temp) is 3 mA, with no typical
>    value. on page 45 (about 3V XL parts) it says that max current is 5 mA (typ 100uA),
>    and is the same with or without power down mode acrivated (?).
>    Looks strange that a 3v device with a "low power" mode might have a quiescent current
>    nearly twice as large as a similar 5V device.
>    So what are the real values, and what can be typically expected from a 5V unit backup
>    powered by a 3V cell ?
>
> - If the design does not use the internal oscilator (OSC4), is it disabled after configuration
>   and thus reduce consumption ?
>
> - What is the current consumption of an unconfigured Spartan ? does it help to keep
>   the "PROGRAM" input low (despite the pullup), is it better to keep "INIT" low ?
>
> During the time that the device is in battery backup mode, the chip goes idle (no internal
> switching occurs) and all power preserving measures are taken (such as using "tie" option,
> making sure all levels are clearly defined, etc ...)
>
> Any data (or your experience if you already designed a battery backed system with a 5V
> Spartan device) would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Eric.

Article: 23281
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: Harald Vefling <haveco@online.no>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:34:48 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Try to floor plan for best flow (assuming DSP app)
All nodes that change state uses power, longer wires use more than
short. If the wire segment is shorter or has less loading from routing
switches due to better floorplan you save power without changing the
underlying logic.
I once did this and to my surprise cut power by 50%. 
(that was probably extreme but anyway) :-)

Harald

Domagoj wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>     I wonder, how could I decrease the power disipation in FPGA ?
> Which methods are used mostly ?
> 
> thanks,
> -------------------------------------------
> -             Domagoj              -
> - Domagoj@engineer.com -
> -------------------------------------------
Article: 23282
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Tom Burgess <tom.burgess@hia.nrc.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:47:40 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
LOL!!! I know that FPGA marketing types are pretty ruthless, but I doubt that
that even the slimiest would stoop to forging sub-par data sheets from the
competition - the risks of getting caught are just too great. 

regards, tom

Robert Binkley wrote:
> 
> One of the reasons the Spartan-II datasheet is protected (a feature of the
> datasheet) is to prevent anyone from making changes and mis-representing the
> specs. 

-- 
Tom Burgess
Digital Engineer
Dominion Radio Astrophysical Observatory
P.O. Box 248, Penticton, B.C.
Canada V2A 6K3
Article: 23283
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Jim Granville <jim.granville@designtools.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:13:22 +1200
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Robert Binkley wrote:
> 
> One of the reasons the Spartan-II datasheet is protected (a feature of the
> datasheet) is to prevent anyone from making changes and mis-representing the
> specs. 

There is more control possible :

 Adobe lists these options under Document Security
( This selects/copies OK, but is a Philips Data sheet, not a Xilinx one
:-)

                                        Printing : Allowed
                           Changing the Document : Not allowed
                     Selecting Text and Graphics : Allowed
  Adding or changing annotations and form fields : Not Allowed

So the obvious solution is to set the same rules for Xilinx Datasheets ?

- jg
Article: 23284
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: Peter Alfke <palfke@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:32:11 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>


Harald Vefling wrote:

> Try to floor plan for best flow (assuming DSP app)
> All nodes that change state uses power, longer wires use more than
> short. If the wire segment is shorter or has less loading from routing
> switches due to better floorplan you save power without changing the
> underlying logic.

A similar idea, but easier to implement:
If your design is relatively slow ( and many battery-operated systems
are) then use overly aggressive timespecs, forcing the software to
generate a much "better" design than really required. That means shorter
interconnects, less capacitance and thus lower power.

Who says you have to be fair to the software? Make it work hard, and
prevent it from spreading out the design, which it loves to do...

Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applications

Article: 23285
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: Rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:16:07 -0400
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Andy Peters wrote:
> Rick,
> 
> What don't you like about the clock enable?
> 
> Given code like:
> 
>     flop : process (clk, reset) is
>     begin
>         if reset = '1' then
>             q <= '0';
>         elsif rising_edge(clk) then
>             if enable = '1' then
>                 q <= d;
>             end if;
>         end if;
>     end process flop;
> 
> the recirculating mux controlled by enable (CE) is what retains the value of
> q when enable is not asserted.  Don't forget that ALL of the Xilinx flops
> have this mux -- not explicitly designating a clock enable signal implies
> that the clock enable is always tied active.
> 
> The timing analyzer takes the mux delay into account.

It is not that I don't like the CE. But rather I don't want to see logic
put in front of the CE that serves no purpose. I have written VHDL code
and had the synthesizer take every IF in the clocked part of a process
and turn it into a logic condition for the CE. Then it took these same
logic conditions and used them to set or clear the D input. 

     flop : process (clk, reset) is
     begin
         if reset = '1' then
             q <= '0';
         elsif rising_edge(clk) then
             if enable = '1' then
                 if condition = '1' then
                     q <= A;
                 else if othercondition = '1' then
                     q <= B;
                 end if;
             end if;
         end if;
     end process flop;

This would have put a LUT in front of the CE ANDing enable with the OR
of "condtion" and "othercondition". The D input would have gotten some
real mess gating these same terms with A and B and "enable". I didn't
write the synthesizer. But I had to use it! 

I ended up taking all logic out of the clocked process and putting it
into a separate process or as combinational (concurrent?) code. I think
the compiler was FPGA Express. I was not a happy camper. 

Now I just want to find out if there is a difference in power doing the
CE function in the LUT or the CE input. I am not saying that there is a
problem with using the CE, I am just collecting information. After all,
until I see some improvement in the synthesizers, I will continue to
code my HDL in schematics. 


-- 

Rick Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com

Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.



Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design

Arius
4 King Ave
Frederick, MD 21701-3110
301-682-7772 Voice
301-682-7666 FAX

Internet URL http://www.arius.com
Article: 23286
Subject: FFT/IFFT for FPGA
From: simonray@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:20:09 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Anybody know  exsits library/IP  implement FFT/IFFT with  FPGA?

The Xilinx's FFT/IFFT  IP core only support Virtex,  any solution support
Spartan II?

The altera's FFT core not free, any suggestion?

Thanks a lot!

Simon


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Article: 23287
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: Rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 02:23:27 -0400
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
iglasner@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>   A FF even if it "see" the same input level does consume power as long
> as there is a clock.
> 
> The only way to reduce the power of a group of FF's is by shuting down
> their clock meaning using clock enable.
> 
> One example for using clock enable is for stand by purpose in cellualr
> phone, where the power source (battery) is limited.
> 
> have a nice day
> 
>    Illan

The question is not does the FF use "any" power. But does the FF use
less power? I would be willing to bet that most of the power in the FPGA
is burned in toggling the ouput of a "slice" or CLB or whatever the
correct term is for an output from a FF or LUT. I would be willing to
bet that much less power is used to toggle a LUT that is only driving
the FF in the same CLB. Even less power is likely used by a FF that is
clocked, but the output does not change. 

Certainly internal nodes in a FF are switching anytime the clock
switches. But the power used is very small since the capacitance of the
internal nodes is very small. But to switch the output and the routed
trace it connects to is likely the lion's share of where the power goes. 

So I would bet (not heavily since I have most of my money in the stock
market and that is the biggest bet I have ever made) that there is very
little power used by FFs which do not switch their outputs regardless of
how that is accomplished; D input not changed, CE held low or clock
turned off. 

Anyone care to wager a pint of your faviorite beverage (or Haagen Das in
my case)?


-- 

Rick Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com

Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.



Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design

Arius
4 King Ave
Frederick, MD 21701-3110
301-682-7772 Voice
301-682-7666 FAX

Internet URL http://www.arius.com
Article: 23288
Subject: Anyone tried the Virtex dev. board from Avnet?
From: Lars Rzymianowicz <larsrzy@ti.uni-mannheim.de>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:55:40 +0200
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hi!

There is a new Virtex Development System from Avnet Design Services.
Have a look at:
http://www.avnetmarshall.com/dynamic/html/html/semi/marketing/xlx-19990526semw.html

Does anyone have experience with it?
It currently has a XCV300-BG432 mounted, but the datasheet mentions
also a XCV800 version. Is the larger one available?

TIA, Lars
-- 
Address:  University of Mannheim; B6, 26; 68159 Mannheim, Germany
Tel:      +(49) 621 181-2716, Fax: -2713
email:    larsrzy@{ti.uni-mannheim.de, atoll-net.de, computer.org}
Homepage: http://mufasa.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/lsra/persons/lars/
Article: 23289
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: dmac <dmac@cutme.matter200.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:51:16 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Peter Alfke <peter@xilinx.com> writes
>
>    Xilinx Databook CD ROM Solutions.
>
Thank you for your workaround and fast response (as ever), I look
forward to the new look CD

regards,

Dave McLeod
dmac
delete the obvious when replying by email
Article: 23290
Subject: Re: Wanted: Xilinx VirtexE
From: Lars <Lotzen@intersci.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:03:22 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
HI Younes !

Whats about the Xilinx distributors?
You will find you chip on http://www.nuhorizons.com
But I don't know the delivery time.

BYE Lars
Article: 23291
Subject: Distributed RAM and VHDL
From: Lars <Lotzen@intersci.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:09:59 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hi everybody!

Since I need more internal memory on my VIRTEX I have to use the distributed RAM parallel to the block RAM. But I don't know how I can access the block RAM under VHDL.
Can somebody help me - maybe with a sourcecode piece with value pre-initialization ?

THX in advance,
Lars
Article: 23292
Subject: Re: VHDL synthesis.
From: "Peter Mason" <pmason@kanda.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:44:08 +0100
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hi Brent,
             Their is a company called MABEX that do a superb CBT tutorial
called VASCO (VHDL Application on Synthesis) they are about to compliment
this with a verilog version.  I believe that you can purchase this product
from the Kanda website's online shop.  http://www.kanda.com/

Enjoy


Pete
Brent <Fun@work.net> wrote in message news:##RhEZv1$GA.401@cpmsnbbsa08...
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I'm looking into learning FPGA and VHDL.
> I've recently been studying various HDL packages, such as Xilinx's
> foundation base, and Synplicity's Synplify.
>
> What I noticed is that they all mention they dont have Verilog and HDL
> synthesis.
>
> Does this mean that they dont actually have tools which enable me to
> write out an HDL file and compile it into a bitstream?
>
> Any response would be appreciated.
>
>
>
>


Article: 23293
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Theron Hicks <hicksthe@egr.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:51:26 -0400
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>


Peter Alfke wrote:

> Hi, folks.
> Please send all comments on this subject - good, bad, and ugly- to me.
> You can be sure that they will be carefully studied, not only by me, but aso
> by the marketing department that's in charge of publishing data books etc.
> We have very exciting devices to describe ( I suppose you all agree ), and we
> want to do that in such a way that you get at the information as easily as
> possible.
> A 600 MB CD is an ideal medium to give you lots of data. But we have to
> format it right.

Peter,
    One problem with a CD is that I cannot mark it up or hi-lite it in any way.
So I have to print the data sheet out anyway and then put it in a binder so I
don't lose it.

>
> Let's get all the irritants out of the way!
> We want you to design with Xilinx parts, not to get mad at documentation
> quirks.
>
> Peter Alfke,   peter@xilinx.com
>
> ===============================
>
> Rickman wrote:
>
> > John Larkin wrote:
> > > This is all part of the current trend to totally capture, monitor, and
> > > manage the customer, in the manner and at the pace that some web-savvy
> > > marketing people consider proper. These are likely people who wouldn't
> > > notice an FPGA unless they stepped on one (preferably a PGA, pins up,
> > > barefoot).
> >
> > John, Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.  ;)
> >
> >
> > > John
> > >
> > > (my next rant will be about the evils of 'web-enabled' EDA tools... stay
> > > tuned!)
> >
> > As you say, this is all part of a trend. Unfortunately Xilinx is a
> > leader in the marketing as well as the designing of FPGAs and tools. But
> > there is hope for change. Just like when they decided not to support
> > schematic based design for the Virtex parts. When enough people
> > screamed, they relented and added the support. We need to tell them that
> > a CD organized like the web site would not be a bad idea (assuming they
> > don't redo the web site to make it more "marketing friendly").
> >
> > So I guess we will put you down as a "NO" on "Likes the new Databook
> > CD".
> >
> > --
> >
> > Rick Collins
> >
> > rick.collins@XYarius.com
> >
> > Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
> > removed.
> >
> > Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> > Specializing in DSP and FPGA design
> >
> > Arius
> > 4 King Ave
> > Frederick, MD 21701-3110
> > 301-682-7772 Voice
> > 301-682-7666 FAX
> >
> > Internet URL http://www.arius.com

Article: 23294
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: iglasner@my-deja.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:10:53 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
hi,

   I'm not into the betting arena and even the single night I spend in
Vegas I prefered to walk arround than do gambling, but you might want
to know that most cellular phone asic DO close the clock for lot's of
FF's as well as mem and it DOES make a huge effect on the power
consumption.

The point that more power might be somewhere else have nothing to do
with this point, as when you want to save power you save everywhere you
can.

To your comment that :

"The question is not does the FF use "any" power. But does the FF use
> less power? I would be willing to bet that most of the power in the
FPGA"

than the answer is yes the FF will use less power even tho' the
capacitance look to you a small part, the amount of FF and the
frequnacy make this small to be not so small.

and yes clock gateing is a "sience" for itself and have big difficult
of itself but it was done and will be done most likely in the future.

have a nice day

   Illan


In article <39505F5F.4A19D624@yahoo.com>,
  Rickman <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote:
> iglasner@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >   A FF even if it "see" the same input level does consume power as
long
> > as there is a clock.
> >
> > The only way to reduce the power of a group of FF's is by shuting
down
> > their clock meaning using clock enable.
> >
> > One example for using clock enable is for stand by purpose in
cellualr
> > phone, where the power source (battery) is limited.
> >
> > have a nice day
> >
> >    Illan
>
> The question is not does the FF use "any" power. But does the FF use
> less power? I would be willing to bet that most of the power in the
FPGA
> is burned in toggling the ouput of a "slice" or CLB or whatever the
> correct term is for an output from a FF or LUT. I would be willing to
> bet that much less power is used to toggle a LUT that is only driving
> the FF in the same CLB. Even less power is likely used by a FF that is
> clocked, but the output does not change.
>
> Certainly internal nodes in a FF are switching anytime the clock
> switches. But the power used is very small since the capacitance of
the
> internal nodes is very small. But to switch the output and the routed
> trace it connects to is likely the lion's share of where the power
goes.
>
> So I would bet (not heavily since I have most of my money in the stock
> market and that is the biggest bet I have ever made) that there is
very
> little power used by FFs which do not switch their outputs regardless
of
> how that is accomplished; D input not changed, CE held low or clock
> turned off.
>
> Anyone care to wager a pint of your faviorite beverage (or Haagen Das
in
> my case)?
>
> --
>
> Rick Collins
>
> rick.collins@XYarius.com
>
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the
XY
> removed.
>
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design
>
> Arius
> 4 King Ave
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110
> 301-682-7772 Voice
> 301-682-7666 FAX
>
> Internet URL http://www.arius.com
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Article: 23295
Subject: Re: How to cut the power disipation down ?
From: "Andy Peters" <apeters.Nospam@nospam.noao.edu.nospam>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:05:10 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Rickman wrote in message <39505DA7.CBFD36CB@yahoo.com>...

>It is not that I don't like the CE. But rather I don't want to see logic
>put in front of the CE that serves no purpose. I have written VHDL code
>and had the synthesizer take every IF in the clocked part of a process
>and turn it into a logic condition for the CE. Then it took these same
>logic conditions and used them to set or clear the D input.
>
>     flop : process (clk, reset) is
>     begin
>         if reset = '1' then
>             q <= '0';
>         elsif rising_edge(clk) then
>             if enable = '1' then
>                 if condition = '1' then
>                     q <= A;
>                 else if othercondition = '1' then
>                     q <= B;
>                 end if;
>             end if;
>         end if;
>     end process flop;
>
>This would have put a LUT in front of the CE ANDing enable with the OR
>of "condtion" and "othercondition". The D input would have gotten some
>real mess gating these same terms with A and B and "enable". I didn't
>write the synthesizer. But I had to use it!

OK, I just ran that code through FPGA Express v3.3.  It created two LUTs --
one for the CE and one for D.  CE is asserted when enable is asserted AND
either condition or othercondition is asserted.  That is what you'd expect,
actually -- those are the conditions that would cause q to change.  Now,
perhaps what you were expecting was for the enable signal to drive CE
directly; however, that would cause the logic for the D input to get
bigger -- slower -- because it's now a more-complicated four-input function.
A mess, as you say.

Now, the D input equation is only a function of A, B and condition.  D is
asserted when condition and A are true, or if condition is not true and B
is.

If you consider your code carefully, you'll see that the

    if condition ...
    elsif othercondition ...

code builds a priority encoder.

The synth knows that if condition is not true, then othercondition might be
true (and since CE would be asserted because othercondition true, then q
could be set), but if it's not, then the CE is killed, and q remains as is.

-- a
-----------------------------------------
Andy Peters
Sr Electrical Engineer
National Optical Astronomy Observatories
950 N Cherry Ave
Tucson, AZ 85719
apeters (at) noao \dot\ edu

"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
     --Arthur C. Clarke



Article: 23296
Subject: Re: Problem copying text from the Spartan II data sheet
From: Robert Binkley <robert.binkley@xilinx.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:07:32 -0700
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

Good news, Spartan/xl/II datasheets on our website were updated earlier today
(pretty quick huh?).  You got what you asked for.  I just downloaded it, and you
can highlight the text.  Any other doc suggestions/complaints?  :)

Robert Binkley
Xilinx Applications


Jim Granville wrote:

> Robert Binkley wrote:
> >
> > One of the reasons the Spartan-II datasheet is protected (a feature of the
> > datasheet) is to prevent anyone from making changes and mis-representing the
> > specs.
>
> There is more control possible :
>
>  Adobe lists these options under Document Security
> ( This selects/copies OK, but is a Philips Data sheet, not a Xilinx one
> :-)
>
>                                         Printing : Allowed
>                            Changing the Document : Not allowed
>                      Selecting Text and Graphics : Allowed
>   Adding or changing annotations and form fields : Not Allowed
>
> So the obvious solution is to set the same rules for Xilinx Datasheets ?
>
> - jg

Article: 23297
Subject: RE: Xilinx config over parallel port ?
From: "Juan-Luis Lopez" <jl.lopez@REMOVETHIS.ieee.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:24:14 +0200
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>

There is an example of this within my final thesis at
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/index.htm

It described a test instrument for E1 (2048kbit/s) telecomm signals,
transmitter and receiver. The design was fully tested and 100% working.
Metastability issues between different clock domains (PC and FPGA) were
considered.

For historical reasons is password protected, but username="user" and
password "1234" will work.

Sorry, the body of the document is in spanish, but you can look at board
schematics at
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/910refer/refer.htm#A_MAIN.SCH (block
diagram)
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/910refer/refer.htm#A_FPGA.SCH (FPGA board)
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/910refer/refer.htm#A_BUS.SCH (BUS board)

and at FPGA schematics
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/910refer/refer.htm#A_E1 (block diagram)
http://www.arrakis.es/~jl.r/pfc/910refer/refer.htm#A__EPPREG (EPP
peripheral)

All the schematics are commented in english.

The FPGA was a Xilinx XC4008E. The circuit used the paralel port to
configure the LCA and then transfering data using the absolute minimum of
hardware and signals (not even a single gate for -PROGRAM pin, just
buffers).

The configuration was in slave serial mode. The asynchronous parallel mode
did not had any speed advantage, complicated the design and it did not allow
to verify the bitstream loading with a CRC (hey, Peter Alfke, did you
noticed that CRC could had been also calculated in paralel mode? ;-)

The FPGA after configuration behaved to the PC as a fast bidirectional EPP
(enhanced paralel port) peripheral, 8 bit wide.

I also have available (not in the web) the source code of a W95 VXD that
- configures the FPGA and
- interfaces with the EPP peripheral inside the FPGA.

Hope this helps

Juan-Luis Lopez
Spain





Article: 23298
Subject: Re: Simple JTAG programmer for Altera MAX 7128A?
From: shiva@well.com (Kenneth Porter)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:40:02 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
steve@rsn-tech.demon.co.uk (Steve Rencontre) wrote in 
<memo.20000615030058.112C@steve.dircon.co.uk>:

>In article <8F51E72E1shivawellcom@207.126.101.100>, shiva@well.com 
>(Kenneth Porter) wrote:
>
>> [posted and mailed]
>
>Mailed? To whom? Oh well, no matter...

I cc'd to Altera tech support. They responded with a day.

>The Jam player will do that. I forget the URL, but it's easy to find on 
>Altera's web site. 

They also recommended the same. URL is http://www.jamisp.com.

Any idea how hard this is to set up? I see the .jam file appear as one of 
the Altera compiler outputs. Is it just a matter of plugging in the 
ByteBlaster and feeding the jam file as a command line argument to some JAM 
utility, or is there much more to it? I mostly want to get a feel for how 
much setup time is required.
Article: 23299
Subject: Leonardo 2000 Comments?
From: "Xanatos" <deletemeaoe_londonfog@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:21:11 GMT
Links: << >>  << T >>  << A >>
Hey all,

My company is interested in purchasing Leonardo Spectrum (2000 version with
TimeCloser technology). Has anyone had a chance to use this (Beta, etc)
tool, and can offer any comments (good, bad or otherwise) about it? The
TimeCloser feature has caught our eye....

We have primarily used Synplify for FPGA synthesis (we have ver 5.3.1), and
so I'm also looking for any other comments from people who are familiar with
both the above version of Leonardo and how it compares feature wise and
performance wise to Synplify.

Thanks for your replies,
Dave
(email aoe_londonfog@hotmail.com or post here)




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